Happy Career Formula with Jette Stubbs

22. How to Negotiate Salary with Fatu Fall, TeamRora.com

July 07, 2021 Jette Stubbs, Fatu Fall Season 1 Episode 22
Happy Career Formula with Jette Stubbs
22. How to Negotiate Salary with Fatu Fall, TeamRora.com
Show Notes Transcript

Jette  read a stat that said something like 90 plus percent of  hiring managers expect people to negotiate salaries, but only 7% of people do negotiate their salary.

Have you ever questioned how to negotiate salary? Have your hands ever shook when it comes time to talk about salary? Have you avoided the conversation altogether and just said, yes, I'll exact what you'll pay me.

I want you to know if you're avoiding the conversation. If you're afraid to have the conversation. You are making a mistake and I want to show you how you can avoid that. Today we're speaking with Fatu Fall from TeamRora.com.

Learn more about Fatu Fall and TeamRora.com:
Lesson Library: https://www.teamrora.com/learn
Connect with Fatu on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com › fatoumata-fatu-fall-49a93228

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22. Negotiations - Fatu Fall - How to Negotiate Salary with Fatu Fall, TeamRora.com

Jette Stubbs: [00:00:00] I  read a stat that said something like 90 plus percent of  hiring managers expect people to negotiate salaries, but only 7% of people do negotiate their salary.

[00:00:12]Have you ever questioned how do I negotiate my salary? Have your hands ever shook when it comes time to talk about salary? Have you avoided the conversation altogether and just said, yes, I'll exact what you'll pay me.

[00:00:26] I want you to know if you're avoiding the conversation. If you're afraid to have the conversation. You are making a mistake and I want to show you how you can avoid that. Today we're speaking with Fatu Fall from TeamRora.com. 

[00:00:43]  Fatu Fall: [00:00:44] I'm sure so many people will resonate with this.  When you're so giving that, you're just like, okay, give me whatever.  I'll just do my best. I'll do it for free anyways, because I love this.  And then I also had this kind of limiting belief of, "okay, it's not about the money, it's about the mission."

[00:00:59] And I live with that for a long time. And it  shields you from really facing your limiting beliefs  and wondering  what is the value of my  skills? 

[00:01:08]We are a negotiation service for tech professionals and  graduates,  particularly graduate students, right? And we focus particularly on engineers  research scientists, scientists into    data scientists, et cetera. 

[00:01:23] Jette Stubbs: [00:01:23] So today I'm really excited to speak with Fatu Fall from Rora. She is going to be talking to us about career development and some of the obstacles recent grads and professionals face, particularly within the stem space. So science, technology, engineering, and math.

[00:01:42] There are certain obstacles that you will face that are different by field, based on the skills that you were taught based on how you were taught to grow your career. So today Fatu is going to be sharing some of that with us. So Fatu, can you take it over and introduce yourself? 

[00:01:58]Fatu Fall: [00:01:58] Yes. Thank you so much.

[00:01:59] It's a pleasure to be here. I am here. Hundred percent because I really want to be, I think it's important to say that  and yes, I'm the co-founder of Rora, so that's teamrora.com and we used to be known as Ralph  and our company. We are a negotiation service for tech professionals and  graduates,  particularly graduate students, right?

[00:02:23] And we focus particularly on engineers  research scientists, scientists into    data scientists, et cetera.    Some of the specialized kind of roles.  And I think what I will share about me is that. Since I was five, I was very aware that I was a girl and now a woman.  And I always wondered why is this world the way it is?

[00:02:47] Where I felt like so many women or girls felt like they didn't have power or that they weren't capable like the guys. And I just  challenged that since I was five and I am here today and I am  I have learned a lot. I have love for all human beings, not just a woman, but I'm still on that same mission to bring balance to the universe by    just manifesting the words of a woman everywhere.

[00:03:17]Jette Stubbs: [00:03:17] Yes. Okay. So that's amazing. So the last time that we spoke, we stopped, we spoke about a few things. There are obstacles in when you're entering the tech space or the stem space, and you're a woman of color in this space. You're  you're a woman or you're a person of color. Are those, those can be two separate things.

[00:03:36] And then you're trying to navigate this space that wasn't really  designed to support you or support your development. And how do you go about understanding your own words? Because sometimes you're not taught to  take ownership of your work. And so what have been some of the things that you've seen as you are offering a negotiation service for them?

[00:03:57]Fatu Fall: [00:03:57] Yes.  Can I just start by saying I studied applied mathematics at Harvard. And at some point I did do tech career.. So I really  I empathize with these things from a very deep place.  And    almost three years ago I negotiated to be Brian's co-founder and that was my first  negotiation in the USA as a professional building a company.

[00:04:23] And it was also very personal, very emotional.  The way I experienced the negotiation. So just putting that out there for you to know this is not coming out of the blue and out of conceptual things.  The first things that I have good first pattern that I have seen  particularly for women in stem and also.

[00:04:44] Minorities in stem like myself. It's this thing of not feeling worthy because you don't see enough people like you in this, in this space. And I think that's true everywhere. I have a nephew with three who's in a house where the average age is like 30.  He feels that he's less because there are others who are not like you  there's no one like him.

[00:05:09] So I think this concept of not seeing enough people or examples, like you get, make, you feel like you're not enough. You shouldn't be there or you're not worthy and you need to work harder and you need to always do more and more and more it's normal. It happens everywhere, everywhere where someone or something is unique.

[00:05:29] It's not. No representative enough.  And so that's the first thing I want people about that I have such a journey to learn that you are inherently worthy and you are even more windy because you are a minority in that space. So that means you had to do a lot and overcome a lot. And you definitely, your, your point a is not the same as everybody else's point a and you're trying to all get to point B, but.

[00:05:56] Your Delta is going to be so big compared to there. So just, just remember that  I  whoever's listening that you are worthy and that's gotta be the starting point  and so giving from a place of strength  and in the negotiations, so many people started it without feeling that wilderness.

[00:06:19] And so of course they are more vulnerable to accepting conditions that are not right for them or job offers that are not right for them or applications and interview processes that are not right for them.  So that's why I stayed here always  worthiness that's that's number one.  

[00:06:37]Jette Stubbs: [00:06:38] I love it. I love what you said. I want to take a step back though, because you said your first negotiation in the U S was negotiating to be co founder and that you, you studied applied mathematics at Harvard. So can you like take us back? Wait, like what, when did you come to the us? When did you, like, why did you choose Harvard to go to school?

[00:06:59] And then what was your experience trying to negotiate afterwards? So first let's start with, when did you come to the U S. I'm really interested in hearing more about your story now and how you got to be this negotiation expert. 

[00:07:09]Fatu Fall: [00:07:09] Thank you. Thank you so much.  It's  a gift to share. So I came to the U S in August, 2010, and that was my orientation week for Harvard college.

[00:07:21] So I came to study and to be wiser and to know more, and I thought I'm going to this like.  Temple of and shines and Newtons and  yeah, just the smartest people on earth. And for me, when I went there, I definitely felt  yes, in terms of    achievement, for sure. That was, that was  close to yes.

[00:07:45] Some of the most high achieving people on earth, but I felt more emotionally ready, I think, than most people in. More inclusive than most people there.  So that was really difficult for me was it was a very big culture shock  and values shock, really.  And then I survived that.  I studied applied mathematics and it was hard.

[00:08:10] It was very hard. It felt like a long winter. Boston has the worst winter, but to study there felt like a four year winter

[00:08:20]to like  to have to test so many different ways to be heard. It was so hard  especially in group work.  And so by the time I finished, I felt proud that I finished because I couldn't believe it. It was everything felt like he was saying yes to me.  But I got from that experience, like the empathy, I think, incredible empathy for people who struggle for and a lot more humility, because I think before I went there, I felt like I was the master of the world.

[00:08:51] So that was wonderful. And then that kind of was a huge motivation. And then something else at Harvard that happened was I discovered social entrepreneurship at HBS at the lab.  And so I combine these two things  having struggled a lot, having a lot of empathy and then discovering about  other people in the world doing good through enterprise.

[00:09:13] And so I decided after Harvard  to go and build startups. And, and so I joined one of my mentors teams and I was one of the first 10 people to build your education.com. And this thing became huge in Africa and it's like revolutionizing that university education.  And I think that would be like more than a thousand  like scholars who went through it.

[00:09:36] So that was my first  my post Harvard life and my first experience building companies and building teams and building a service, essentially  and thinking about innovation, thinking about how to serve people. And then I just couldn't stop.  I kept going, it took me to Latin America. It took me to different industries, including FinTech.

[00:09:59] And EdTech. And then  now here in the career space  and negotiation was a not obvious choice.  But when I heard about the work that Brian was doing at that time, I was doing a load of training for women managers in Latin America, helping them  face their fears  helping them build skillsets that are stopped right.

[00:10:22] Late networking    making yourself visible  No in a 500 or 1,000 people company, like how do you make yourself visible and how do you go for leadership roles?  So that's what I was doing.  And then when I heard about  Rora Brian was, was building Rora, like the first year, it just was like, wow, that's amazing.

[00:10:45] That's a space where I can do the same thing, but it has a beginning and an end. And the impact is like very obvious to people.  So that's the long story. 

[00:10:57]Jette Stubbs: [00:10:57] All right. So that is really amazing.  First of all, there's so much there's similarities in our stories.

[00:11:03] Cause I also, my first  week in Canada was for orientation. Actually I went the week before orientation.  Cause I wanted to go early, so I could familiarize myself with the space because coming from  a smaller islands, like the school campus felt like it was bigger, it was bigger than anything I'd ever seen.

[00:11:23] And I'm horrible with directions. And so I knew I was going to get lost and I did  I'm just spatially challenged. Like you can leave me in the middle of someplace, give me a compass and I'll be like, Hmm, I I'll still get lost. Like I know that about myself. So I wanted to like, feel that out, but very similar stories in the sense that I was absolutely like an international student first week in the country.

[00:11:48] It was my first week at university. And then trying to figure it out and  Ontario has pretty bad winters, but definitely university felt like a long winter. Like the culture shock.  I think one of the hardest things that I did was  I went on a like alternative spring break program and it was in Peru, but I went with a bunch of Canadians.

[00:12:11] So I was immersed in Canadian culture with no like escape from it to another culture where they were experiencing culture shock. And here I was like this Latin American culture, Caribbean culture, a lot of similarities. I was like, oh, this feels so much more familiar, but I was somehow. Stuck within Canadian culture while experiencing that was like one of the roughest experiences.

[00:12:32] And then I was like, okay, if I travel, I need to travel like on my own. And that's when I really started exploring, traveling on my own. But back to what you say so many similarities in your stories, but I didn't do like applied mathematics, like applied mathematics, adds a different level of challenge. So I studied business and sociology, sociology in particular, there were a lot of women in my classes.

[00:12:53] I'm imagining with applied mathematics at Harvard, you weren't in  classes dominated by  minorities or women.   That adds another level of challenge that would make it a very dark winter potentially on how people , depending on how people are treating you. And Harvard is all about brand and all about the brand identity of the organization and the university.

[00:13:17] So a lot of people who were attracted to a brand and status  yes. 

[00:13:22]I don't feel like I need to explain the rest of what I'm trying to say. You know what I mean?  That attracts a certain type of personality.  And there are also a ton of amazing people that you'll find in that mix, but it would make it, it would make it challenging.

[00:13:37] And then for you to navigate that, and then to say, I'm going to be entrepreneurial. I'm going to stay here. I'm going to negotiate. I'm going to do one startup after the other is amazing. But how did you get to that point where you're like, I know my worth, I'm going to negotiate into these opportunities.

[00:13:56]Fatu Fall: [00:13:56] Good point. First of all you and I should swap notes. I get a lot.

[00:14:01]I can't wait to hear those stories.  Imagine getting lost when it's  I think we're do Canada use degrees or fair night. Like it's no fun to get lost.

[00:14:11]I have stories about that. All right. And how do you survive? And then in terms of  getting to the place where I could just negotiate and know my worth, he said   like I encourage people to go to our website and check out the story with Brian.  I had negotiated before Brian of course, like maybe four times or something and I have so giving. 

[00:14:36] I'm sure so many people will resonate with this.  When you're like, so giving that, you're just like, okay, give me whatever.  I'll just do my best. I'll do it for free anyways, because I love this.  And then I also had this kind of limiting belief of, "okay, it's not about the money, it's about the mission."

[00:14:52] And I live with that for a long time. And it  shields you from really facing your limiting beliefs  and wondering  what is the value of my skills? Like very based kind of thinking  that's still new to me, like honest to God, I'm still developing that skillset. And thank God. Like the entrepreneurship path really helped me face those beliefs and keep facing them.

[00:15:14] But I was that type of person. Like I would work for this for free, so I'm getting very great.  Give me whatever. And I did that for a few years until I think it was one job where I felt I was taken advantage of and it was clear to me.  And right when I walked out of that, they gave me the job offer the same day.

[00:15:37] They told me the number, like if the number offering, what do you think. And I was like, Hmm, I'm not sure. I think I should probably go home and think about this.  And they were just like, yeah, what do you think? And then I felt discounted of compulsion to say something because I didn't want to  and I said something and after I really regretted it.

[00:15:56] Okay. I think that's the desert that's  that was like maybe my second. Yeah. My second job opportunity. And that's when I started to feel like awakened, like Hmm. I feel like I'm doing some mistakes here.  And then it continued and  I didn't, I never felt comfortable at that a time to  just ask about it to someone who had worked more or had their position of leadership as a woman.

[00:16:23] It just didn't occur to me. And then I had the negotiation with Brian. And of course this is about negotiation. Like it's clear. There's no, like everything about it is like, Hey, you get it into safe here.  Wait. 

[00:16:36] Jette Stubbs: [00:16:36] No, no. 

[00:16:37] Fatu Fall: [00:16:37] Ryan, the opportunity right before our house  where I was doing my gap year teaching that's that's the first time that I felt.

[00:16:45] I have worth and then fighting current. I negotiated with the school, the second school so much. And, and, and I got everything I wanted, but it was a fight. It was like, this is what I want. Does it know? Is it, this is really what I want to say. No. Then I said, usually you should look for someone else.

[00:17:05]And I got what I wanted. Yeah, I got what I wanted. So that's the first time I started to feel a sense of self-worth and it wasn't steal my market value, but it was, it was maybe the best offer really for the gap year role that I was taking.  And I validated it afterwards. Cause I talked with all the teachers,

[00:17:26]Jette Stubbs: [00:17:26] but it is a very like scientific approach. You're like, you test it, you, you think this is the number, but then you go and you validate your idea and you, you check with everybody. I, I love that approach. There's okay. There was one powerful thing that you said, like this idea that you get so focused on the mission.

[00:17:46] That you, you think, okay,  I would do this for free, so just offer me whatever. You undersell yourself financially and you understand sell what you should be getting. But then on the flip side where you talked about negotiating your worth and being able to say, I'm going to leave this on the table.

[00:18:09] Both of those positions, like being able to say. I would do this for free. Pay me what you want and saying, I can leave this job on the table because I have enough options. I can go elsewhere.  It's an equity, sorry. Oh, 

[00:18:24] Fatu Fall: [00:18:24] let me tell you something. When I negotiated. And I said, you should find someone else. 

[00:18:29] At that time, honestly, I didn't have another option lined up, but I just felt like I was already giving so much.  I think I've, I  what we're teaching now at, at rural of course, is there's this secret negotiation, which is, you just feel like you're giving so much, that's it, it doesn't matter if you have something lined up or not.

[00:18:51] Jette Stubbs: [00:18:52] Cause I think for a lot of people, they get afraid when they're negotiating, because they're like, what if I negotiate myself out of this opportunity and then another one doesn't come my way. And if they don't have something lined up.   How do you approach that? How do you get people to feel that confidence?

[00:19:07] Because that fear then becomes crippling and they'll be like, no, I can't. I've had  I've dealt with that with clients where I said, Hey, you should be making like 20 to 30,000, maybe even up to $50,000 more than what you're making right now per year. And they're like, there's no way. That's not possible.

[00:19:25] And then I tell them to negotiate and ask for this number and then the ones who listened to me get it. But there are some who are just adamant.  There's no way I don't want them to laugh at me. That's always, if your people are gonna laugh at me, if I give them this number, if they're gonna laugh at me, if I tell them  

[00:19:41] that I think I'm worth this much. And that fear of having somebody laugh at you for claiming your worth can be extremely scary. So how, how do you approach that? It's exactly paralyzing. 

[00:19:54]Fatu Fall: [00:19:54] So I will tell you that. And by the way, again, I refer people to our website to listen to my negotiations with Brian afterwards.

[00:20:03] Cause the fear was there and it took me a year and a half. So it's real and not. Saying that it's so easy. It's not.  So for me  when I think of the negotiation I had before Rora, which I loved and I had fun.    It's because one, I had a very good relationship with the manager.  I knew them honestly, like only a month, but I just  they were just like, I had validation that they were very clear that I'm the one you're looking for.

[00:20:33] I had clear validation for why I was core to what he was looking for.  It wasn't like I'm a side kick or something.  And huge  we just had a really positive relationship and I told him, Hey, I'm going to negotiate. I received this offer. I think I should negotiate  and he was like, go for it, ask what do you need?

[00:20:52]   So I think that's really important for people to.  Talk with the manager after the offer and to validate, right?  Am I according to this person's plans?  Do they need me, can I see my value add, can they just tell me? Because he told me, I asked him  I told him, I'm thinking of leaving Argentina. At the time I was living in Argentina. .

[00:21:14] And I said, why should they put my plans on pause and just  interview with you guys. And he told me, and that was great. And I was like, okay    fine. I understand.  And, and then, yeah, when I was negotiating, I was not shy. I said, I received the offer. I'm very excited, but I'm going to negotiate this.

[00:21:34] Just letting you know. And he was like, yes, go for it.  So yeah  it's important to, to validate with the manager. I think so many people would feel liberated to negotiate.  If they just could get that, those words, if they could hear, if they, sometimes it's not even about hearing, it's just telling the manager I'm going to do this.

[00:21:55] And they're like, yeah, talk to the recruiter. I'm like, okay, I'll support you. Okay. What do you need?  And then sometimes very rarely you will hear them say, Hmm, I think you've got to like the best deal or     I'm not sure.  I think you have a fair, you have it good here.  And if you're hearing that  the judges means that they.

[00:22:16]They don't believe in you as much as you believe in your skills, maybe.  And it's up to you to decide if you really think that you would junior in that place then. Sure. But if you feel like you are not junior and you have  something that they don't, maybe you just shouldn't listen to that.

[00:22:33] Jette Stubbs: [00:22:34] I, I love that feedback cause I, I do think sometimes. Like you will hit across those people who tell you  listen, you should just accept this offer that we're giving you and you shouldn't negotiate. And  I also read a stat that said something like 90 plus percent of managers hiring managers expect people to negotiate salaries, but only 7% of people do negotiate their salary.

[00:23:01] So it's this huge gap between  hiring managers are expecting people. They know you have the option to negotiate what's on the table for you, but only 7% of people actually take that option, which means that. If they know that there's room to negotiate, they didn't have probably means you, that you could probably ask for more money and they've left some wiggle room there for you to negotiate and ask for more after that initial offer.

[00:23:29] But most people aren't doing that. So they're leaving money on the table and then one job after the other job passes and. Maybe you're excited because you're  the next job you get as a $10,000 salary increase, but really you should have been making $10,000 more in that last job. And now you should be making $20,000 more.

[00:23:48] And so that, yeah

[00:23:50] Fatu Fall: [00:23:51] Especially in the technical roles, it can go in the six figures.    It's crazy. 

[00:23:57] Jette Stubbs: [00:23:57] Exactly. And then when you spread that over, like a three or four year contract, or three or four years on a job, even as small, like I, I consider $10,000 to be a fairly small salary increase.  That that's $40,000. That's like another salary over four years.

[00:24:15] And tick, but typically people are leaving like. $20,000 on the table, especially when you're looking at  six figure rolls. There's a lot of wiggle room there for that negotiation. Wouldn't be leaving so much money on the table. Yes, 20%. Exactly. I think is something that people are frequently leaving on the table and it just goes beyond the, the.

[00:24:38] The number, it goes beyond that you can negotiate  time off, you can negotiate the amount of vacation time you have, whether you could work from home. Remote work is a huge one, especially now that people have the opportunity to do it during the pandemic. I think people don't realize how much.

[00:24:54] Flexibility. They can have, I know people who have like young kids and I've worked with them to negotiate so that they can make sure that they have time to go to soccer games and little league and do all these different things with their kids and have that work-life balance, but still deliver in the workplace.

[00:25:09] Cause once you are solving the problems that the company cares about, they're much more willing to give you the wiggle room to have the type of life that you want, if  so how to negotiate it and have those discussions.  When people are going to  Rora and you're helping them negotiate, like how does that work?

[00:25:27] Like how does it work when people come to you and want to work with your organization? 

[00:25:32]Fatu Fall: [00:25:32] Yes. Thank you for that question. And I just want to respond to this. I just want to close the circle. It comes back to worthiness, right? So many people don't feel well again, as I said, I felt very clearly I have something important to give.

[00:25:46] I am giving way more value here.  That's what I felt. And when you can feel like that negotiation is a breeze, it doesn't mean you're aggressive at all. It just means you will always tell people. Here's what I think. Here's my situation. Here's what will make me happy. And there'll be no guilt associated with it because you are aware of what you give.

[00:26:07] And of course, one needs to be grateful to realize when one has to give.  So I think for a lot of people, there's internal work to be done. To feel grateful to be able to recognize what one is giving so that one can ask without feeling guilty.  That's the first thing I wanted to say, just to close that loop, right?

[00:26:27] We have the best data on some of the fields out there. This comes back as the most important lesson.  And then the second part, how they work with us. They pay the retainer and then we support people until they sign a final offer. And oftentimes people come to us when they are interviewing when they have a bunch of technical interviews signed up.

[00:26:49] And then  sometimes  some people hear about us when they are at the end of their cycle, which is  I have one or two or whatever X offers and I'm trying to negotiate and decide. And so we also welcomed them. Yeah. At that time. And then we work with them. We helped them negotiate with all the companies.

[00:27:08] We don't leave anyone else unless like the company, like the, the manager, he says  we don't negotiate and it's out there on their website,   we just help them with all those ones. And then when they signed the final offer, they pay a 15 to 20% commission depending.  Sometimes  some people are in a situation where we just say, okay, pay, what do you think is fair?

[00:27:31] VSM  there's case by case basis where there's  the best policy.  And so we let the person have control and.  And, and decide at the end  some situations happen like that.  And yeah, and we we've, we've always taken money from happy customers. We don't take money from disgruntled  customers, and it's very rare.

[00:27:56] And when it has happened, we've given back the retainer and it was because someone  just  was so risk-averse, didn't believe in their worth.  For, they wanted to negotiate, but really they just wanted to the job and that's it.  I understand that I have been in that phase in my life.

[00:28:13] It has happened in the past and that's okay. But it's just, it just means  it's not for everybody, right? Like we are interested in, in people who are in that Headspace, where they can think about  the value and what is the best they can get.   And yeah, like that's, I just, hopefully they covered the question.

[00:28:30] It does. 

[00:28:31] Jette Stubbs: [00:28:31] It does. It does.    To, just to recap that, so you have an income sharing model. People pay a retainer, but if they don't get that salary increase, then the retainer is returned to them.  If it, if they're not, yeah. They can ask for that.  So that's amazing. Cause it is, it is different, right?

[00:28:49] It's a different model from what people would do. If they like, typically like worked with me, for example, like I have a set rate with youth. If they pay the 15 to 20%, they they'd end up paying like probably more money in the end, but they then have you taking on that risk with them to go on that journey with them, which is a huge piece.   Exactly what you said is the obstacle that I found with that.  Your company's much bigger than me as a solo person.    But yeah. I initially explored like income sharing as, as an option so that I could share in that risk with people.

[00:29:24] But I hit some of those same barriers. Like some of the people I saw that had like huge opportunities for income growth, like when people are looking at a job that can give them 50% or a hundred percent  or three times their salary  There is a fear that can come out. That can be like a physical reaction, their hands shake, they start crying.

[00:29:49] They're like, who am I? Who am I to do this? How am I capable?  And that I found has been. That's something that when people put their skin at the skin in the game and they put some money towards it and they said, okay, I can't, I can't get this back. I have to go back and I have to work with her. And I have to talk with her through this.

[00:30:07] That is that's honestly why I ended up choosing this model because I love working with like people of color, women of color, people who have those like internalized fears, people who maybe grew up poor, who grew up with economic barriers. And now they're trying to break through those barriers, but

[00:30:26]try to create like freak through those barriers, but they have all these internalized beliefs about their own self-worth. So when they on their resume, their work experience makes them totally capable of doing this amazing job. That is like one to three times their salary. But. They don't see themselves as worthy.

[00:30:45] So they're not pitching themselves as being worthy. And even though yes. And even though the interviewer wants to pull that information out of them. They're like struggling and stumbling over their words, even though they know the answer. Once you sit with them clearly after the interview is done, after they've finished crying after they've flopped the interview, because they let their fears get the best of them and they didn't seek out coaching or support, then they walk you through everything they would have done if they got that job.

[00:31:13] And it's like the perfect answers. But the fear that self-worth  gets the best of them and  I love what your organization does and what it's doing to help people in that space and taking on that risk with them. It's yeah. And it's just a different approach from what I'm doing, but yeah. I know we connected with  being women of color, being like former international students.

[00:31:35] I didn't even know that your first week it a university was also your first week in the new country. That's one of my things too.   So it's, it's a big thing. Like you're navigating new academic environment and a new country and a new culture at the same time. Everything is new, nothing is familiar.

[00:31:53]Then it sounds like you've then went on to  live in multiple places after that. And you sound like you've had such an amazing career. So thank you so much for coming and for sharing all of your advice. Is there one thing like outside of the self-worth, is there one thing that you would want people to do when they are about to negotiate?

[00:32:13] Like what's your best negotiation tip?

[00:32:15]Fatu Fall: [00:32:15] Thank you. What'd you just do right now? I'll see  a million bucks.

[00:32:21]Yes. You said you did this, you did that. You did all these countries. You had these, you didn't understand all these environments and you were successful and I was just smiling. I was like, oh yeah, I did that. Oh yeah, that's true.

[00:32:35]So this is the secret to feeling worthy, right? It's. It's reviewing with someone. And I think it's not enough to do it by yourself sometimes because it's just in a critic. But when you do it with someone like right now, me and you I'm feeling so happy. And so not that I need validation, but just saying like, when you do this exercise, someone of reflection and just going through everything you've, you've come through and you've experienced and you've learned.

[00:33:07] That's when it's obvious. You're like, yeah, I have so much to give. I don't need  prove that  proof of performing or, or like the, that I'm smart or I'm capable. It's like the data speaks for itself. So that's one of the most important exercises that we do with our candidates at the very beginning and in the middle, when the numbers start to come in and people's that you feel scared.

[00:33:33]Okay, let's go back through your history again. It's this cellular your wins. Let's let's again, find those points of worthiness for yourself. And so that when you're, before you go into that conversation with this recruiter or this manager, so that you feel you're really contributing from a place of strength, not, you're not the weak link here.

[00:33:53] Jette Stubbs: [00:33:54] I love that. I think that rings true to everything that I've seen with coaching people as well.  When you're sitting down with them and you've helped them like revamp their resume and talk about their experiences differently. I always get this feedback. I never saw myself this way.

[00:34:11]Yeah.  That's a huge piece of it and is exactly, I see what you're saying. Like I never saw myself this way. I didn't realize how much I had done. I'd never seen it. Put that way. When you talk about my experiences. Yeah. I, it just sounds so different.  It's just what you've done. I'm just repeating what you've said in and using a framework around it.

[00:34:30] But to have, like you said, your own inner critic can get in your way. So I love what you are doing  in the career development space and helping people in stem. Cause I think, yeah. In particular, they're not taught persuasive marketing. They're not taught how to sell themselves. They are taught how to crunch the numbers, how to deal with big data.

[00:34:49] What are depending on which fields you're in, how to do biology, how to do research, but you're not taught how to negotiate to get the salary that you deserve after all of your hard work to based on the value that you're adding to the organization that you'll be working with.  

[00:35:05]Fatu Fall: [00:35:05] Can I say something about this, like this STEM thing?

[00:35:09] Thank you for raising it, because this is like maybe one of the things. It's like one of my biggest strengths right away is thinking of stem in you. Of course, but it's also one of my biggest weaknesses because. From day one, you are taught, you are a problem solver. So then you look for problems everywhere.

[00:35:28] But when it comes to negotiation, it's so hurtful.  I went through it. You start to look for everything. That's a problem about you and what makes you weak and what you need to fix. In fact, it's one of those areas and in general, like generating money as an activity. It's one of those areas where.

[00:35:45] It's all about. What's already there. What's not a problem. What's the solution.  And so just  I wanted to mention this because I have noticed it so much, especially with the candidates I work with in our system.  It's this thing of, I must have a problem. I must be a problem somewhere.

[00:36:02] There must be something to fix. And it's  no, this is the one time where it's not about problems and fixing. It's totally about you being a solution to someone. What'd you can give that's it. 

[00:36:15]I love it.  This reminds me of a conversation I had with a client last week where I was trying to tell her.

[00:36:22]Jette Stubbs: [00:36:22] Listen, you can do this job. It was one of those times where somebody is negotiating that salary increase. That's 50% higher.  And it's, it's nerve wracking. And she exactly what you said. She she's in like the sciences and healthcare space. And she said  These are the gaps that I have. She liked nitpicked and found the few things where she is in a hundred percent qualified where it's like a preference that they had listed.

[00:36:49] But the truth is they were so excited to meet with her. And what she did was, she was like, "Oh, but I can't pitch myself to do this. I've never done it before." And I was like  how do you get the opportunity to do something, if you're never willing to pitch yourself to do something you haven't done before? All they're looking for is that you have the skills to do the job, the skills to answer the questions.

[00:37:08] If they were limiting themselves to only hiring people who had done that exact job before they'd have a really limited talent pool. They're looking for somebody who has some transferable skills,  has the knowledge, but people get so stuck and then they nitpick everything that they don't have.

[00:37:24] And it's. Stops them from applying to jobs, it stops them from negotiating their worth. It stops them from saying  Hey, I can do this and putting their name forward. So would you say  it it's so true and like you said, particularly for people in stem, like it's so true and I find it over and over again.

[00:37:43] And if you're listening to this  No, that you're not alone and know that you don't have to check every single box on a job description. You do not. And that just because you don't check every box doesn't mean you don't have the right to negotiate your salary. You still have the right to negotiate your salary and negotiate because you are adding value to that organization is okay.

[00:38:03] Is there anything else you'd want to leave us with to, for your 

[00:38:06] Fatu Fall: [00:38:06] asphalt? No. It says skill what'd. You were saying, just building it,  like I'm the analytical type. So I know that it helps me when I think of things in frameworks. Maybe like you just think of this framework. It's skill-building like anything else, like those coding skills.

[00:38:22] And so you better start now the sooner. Is that the better? 

[00:38:26]Jette Stubbs: [00:38:26] Yes. Is better for your income, better for your confidence, and you'll get better and better at it, which means more and more money in your bank account over time, but also more flexibility as you start to negotiate what you want. So thank you so much for all of this advice today.

[00:38:41] It was so helpful. Also seeing how much we connect. I didn't even know like how things overlapped. It was great chatting with you. Let us know where can we find you and learn more about your organization. 

[00:38:55]Fatu Fall: [00:38:55] teamrora.com. That's the one  check out the learn tab. We have a library of videos about how to negotiate negotiation stories from candidates that we helped.

[00:39:08] Very fascinating place. You love it. And then we also have a clients tab where you actually see the faces of the people that we've supported some of them. So also take that out. And then personally, I'm wondering to find me there. 

[00:39:23] Jette Stubbs: [00:39:23] So I'll put it in the show notes. I'll put  your LinkedIn, I'll put the video with you to go shooting with Brian and I will put the link  to your website so that people can both connect with you personally, but also learn more about all the negotiation services you offer to people within the stem space. So thank you so much. 

[00:39:46] Fatu Fall: [00:39:46] I love this. I love this. Wow. I didn't know that. Yeah. We have very similar stories on how we go to north America. It's crazy. And the kind of things we did afterwards, we do. 

[00:40:00] Jette Stubbs: [00:40:00] Yeah. Very similar. Although you traveled a lot more. I wished I had traveled more afterwards. I did a lot between The Bahamas in and Canada, like a lot of back and forth.

[00:40:11]You're listening to the happy career formula 

[00:40:13] with Jette Stubbs 

[00:40:14] where we talk about how to find what you love to do and turn it into ways to make money, whether that's a job, freelance service or a business, so you can live life on your own terms. 

[00:40:26]this is a career and business podcast, but my two main goals for what I want to offer you are: one  the tools to build a career that aligns with who you are.

[00:40:37] So you can make money in a way that funds your life goals and the lifestyle that you want to build for yourself. Two, to have healthier relationships with yourself and others. 

[00:40:48] Because I think that if you have your financial resources together and you have good people around you, you can live a happier life.

[00:40:57] Subscribe and leave a review if you are enjoying the podcast.

[00:41:01] if you know somebody who you think may find this useful, please feel free to share it, with a friend.

[00:41:06]Next, we're going to be speaking with Mike Lander. And if you have ever wondered, how do I start to negotiate my worth? How do I start to negotiate? How much I charge as a freelance service or a business? How do I take these lessons for negotiations that big companies are using and apply it to how I negotiate salary and and how I negotiate price, whether it's a job, freelance service or a business, then I'm really excited for the conversation that we're going to have with Mike, because he breaks down formulas and processes that you can use to negotiate more effectively to earn more, whether you're charging individual prices for your products or services.

[00:41:51] Or you are working for an employer and you want to negotiate your salary. He talks about how the principles apply in different scenarios and where they differ. So if you are looking to expand your options and branch out beyond a job, this conversation with Mike is going to be so powerful for you to understand how to negotiate your way.